专制和独裁

from: y
Date: 2008/3/28

https://groups.google.com/group/lihlii/browse_thread/thread/aa6d4a3c20cfe61b

I do not agree with you on the liberal-despotic dimension. After all, despotism does not exist any more in the west, at least not openly.

It should be replaced liberal-conservative. This is then a dimension of moralism. Christian parties tend to be conservative and parties such as D66 and GroenLinks are liberal.


———-
From: lihlii
Date: 2008/3/28

You’re lacking of observation of so-called “western society”.  There are
very strong despotism everywhere.  And it will always emerge.  In a more
liberal society like the Netherlands, most political ideology is
liberal, but still there are despotic thoughts even in mainstream
politics.  Those who killed a politician to stop his policy is
apparently despotic.

Liberal is not the opposite of Conservative.  That’s one of the points
I’m opposing to popular political classification standard.

“Liberal” in my definition is not “laissez faire”, neither is it
“arbitrary”, nor “progressive”.  progressive-conservative is a different
dimension of scale.

My classification standard is not for one nation, but worldwide.  There
is no reason to limit the classification in one nation.  Just as I said,
如果一种分类学标准,鸭嘴兽在澳大利亚被认为是哺乳动物,而到了中国就被认为
是鸭子,鸟类,那么这个分类标准是混乱的。
分类标准必须放之四海而皆准。

———-
发件人: y
日期: 2008年3月28日 下午4:55

How do you define despotism?

———-
发件人: lihlii
日期: 2008年3月28日 下午5:26

Briefly described in [1].

b: 而极端,不一定是专制。专制,也不一定是独裁。关于专制和独裁的区别,这
一点我反复说过。
b: 专制,我用 despotism
a: 当前时期的政治状态是最基本的判断基础 当地的当前时期
b: 独裁,我用 autocracy 比如,军队军官,必然是独裁的。但是不一定专制。
b: 公司经理人,也是独裁为主,但是绝对不可以专制。
b: 什么就是专制了呢?违约,侵权,践踏自由。
b: 比如,军官虐待士兵,克扣军饷,胡乱屠杀平民
a: 恩
b: 经理人贪污,克扣工资,强迫超时工作,这就不是独裁,而是专制
b: 而独裁未必专制 专制也不一定需要独裁。一个团体也可以专制,所谓“集体领导“。
a: 如 ccp
b: “多数的专制”也很常见,比如一只羊和3 只狼投票决定吃什么。
b: 这就不可以叫做多数的独裁,否则就不通了。所以一定要区分清楚独裁和专制
的差异。
a: 恩
b: 我认为独裁不是问题。有时候很需要独裁。但是专制必然是罪恶。

请看这里[2]的图示[3]:自由 liberal = 保障利权 protection of rights; 专制 despotic = 剥夺利权 deprivation of rights

Screenshot038

[1] http://groups.google.com/group/lihlii/browse_thread/thread/55de226fc82bf9c
[2] http://groups.google.com/group/lihlii/browse_thread/thread/aa6d4a3c20cfe61b
[3]

———-
发件人: lihlii
日期: 2008年3月29日 上午12:27
收件人: salon-friends@googlegroups.com, lihlii-g <lihlii@googlegroups.com>

g:

I don’t agree with you at all on the definition of depotism.

I’ll give you an exmaple.

A ban on homosexualism or same-sex marriage can hardly be called
depotism. But it is absolutely not liberal.

This is why I say the opposite of liberal should be conservative.

Also, all the examples you have given for depotism are illegal in the
west. I am not saying they do not exist in the west. I am only saying
that they are neither legal nor approved by the mainstream.
On the other hand, moral conservatism is everywhere. Even in the
Netherlands, a country famous for her liberalism, sex with animals and
marriage between brothers and sisters are forbidden.

l:

Because your definition of “liberal” is wrong.

Ban of same-sex marriage IS despotism.

g wrote:
> I don’t agree with you at all on the definition of depotism.

There had been, and still many despotic laws in the “west”, for example,
death penalty in USA.
There are many other despotic elements in current “western” society.

你只要还用 west/east 这种概念混乱的词,你即便不用中文,也不能正确思考。:)
退一步说,即便你说荷兰主流是 liberal,也和我说的政治分类法是否合适无关。
就像,澳大利亚到处是有袋类,但是中国根本没有,
因此有袋类的生物学分类不合理?:)

g wrote:
> Also, all the examples you have given for depotism are illegal in the

l:

是否 banned 不等于 illegal。即便 illegal 也和政治分类标准是否合理无关。恰恰分类标准需要包括所有合法不合法,
主流和被边缘化的意识形态。

There may be proper biological reasons to avoid harm by forbidding animal sex and marriage between brothers and sisters, I think.
The harm to the second generation, or animal-human transmitted disease is not in the domain of personal rights.

liberal = protection of rights.
despotism = deprivation of rights.

Conservatism can also be liberal.  For example, if communists want to overthrow the democratic system of Taiwan now, they’re
 revolutionary, and the democrats will be comparatively “conservative” to keep the old political system, and counterrevolutionary.

See this illustration[2] in [1]:

Moz-screenshot-1

This is a different dimension of scale other than liberal-despotism.  It’s about historical comparison of the political ideology.

[1] 政治意识形态分类 [2]

g wrote:

Also, all the examples you have given for depotism are illegal in the west. I am not saying they do not exist in the west. I am only saying that they are neither legal nor approved by the mainstream. On the other hand, moral conservatism is everywhere. Even in the Netherlands, a country famous for her liberalism, sex with animals and marriage between brothers and sisters are forbidden.

———-
发件人: lihlii
日期: 2008年3月29日 上午1:22

In my clear definition, liberal doesn’t mean “let it be”, “don’t intervene”, “laissez-faire”, “arbitrary 随心所欲”, “open-minded” or “progressive”.
It’s defined as: protection of rights. It’s not antonym to conservative. The proper autonym to conservative is either reactive, or progressive, in
two different time directions [5].

比如台湾政治中关于统独问题,

马英九就是 conservative 保守派,不独,不统,保持现状。
统派:新党,爱国同心会,是 reactive 反动派, retroactive 复辟派,希望回到 历史上某种状态;
独派:民进党,台湾团结联盟,是 progressive 改革派,revolutionary 革命 派,希望加速目前的某种发展趋势到一个全新的状态。

Conservative 保守派是中间派,其实主要在各国政治中都是如此。荷兰政治中 CDA 基督教民主联盟就是比较典型的 conservative。反同性恋婚姻的以 Christian Union, Political Reformed Party (SGP)为主;而 CDA 则有少数议员 赞同[3],显示其在这一议题上的中间保守立场。

欧美政治中的“保守-自由”对立概念,是历史形成的不准确的二元对立,可能因为 历史上自由主义之社会思潮发生,和保守派,反动派,复辟派发生对立而导致。
但实际上,专制主义左派的共产党,专制主义右派的纳粹党,在他们欧洲历史上登 台时也是革命派,但却不是“自由派”。这恰恰说明这种分类标准的混乱。

[1] 荷兰议会通过最新法案-“同性恋有结婚和领养孩子的权利” http://news.chinesewings.com/cgi-bin/site/h.cgi?id=20000915101010
[2] Dutch political parties http://www.quirksmode.org/politics/partyApp.html
[3] http://chinese.rnw.nl/nederland/politiek/7b2c56db5c4a9c8d80af51855fb7-balkenende-51859601621054587b804ecb
http://groups.google.com/group/lihlii/t/c10a8f88c74fb54a
海尔达·费尔堡(Gerda Verburg),农业、自然与食品质量大臣(基民盟)。今年 四十九岁的费尔堡在第二议院担任议员期间主要负责社会事务,从政之前她曾长期 为CNV基督教工会联合会工作,是其负责人之一。她是荷兰历史上第一位女农业大 臣。费尔堡出身农家,父母曾是乳业畜牧场主,祖父及外祖父都曾务农。她在第一 届鲍肯内德内阁时期当上了基民盟副主席,那时她才开始出名。费尔堡坦然公开自 己同性恋的性取向,2000年关于同性婚姻投票时,她是本党内少数投赞成票的人士 之一。

[4] 政治意识形态分类 [5]

———-
发件人: lihlii
日期: 2008年3月29日 下午12:42

SGP 是 Political Reformed Party (Dutch <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_language>: Staatkundig Gereformeerde Partij, SGP) [1]

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reformed_Political_Party

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